Transcript

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): I remember as a child, Hilmar and Sytzke Kratz talking about the [Children’s Care] center [in Vryburg,] and them going off on weekends and going off at times to come and do some work and get involved. But we never really knew much about it. They didn't talk that much about it, but we were always intrigued. And then, um, about three months ago now, Sytzke died. Um, and Reverend Witbooi spoke at the funeral.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): Peter Witbooi?

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Yeah. And at the same time, um, Erwin and I have been working through some thoughts about …I'm, I'm retired now. I had a successful business that I sold. Erwin’s coming up towards retirement and that, and we both were talking about how we would like to be more involved in some kind of charitable thing. And, and actually, the dream for us is to do something that links us together because we don't get to spend enough time with each other. So, so to find a cause that's common to both of us, that's, that, that would be great. So, that was kind of a bit of a background. And, and I was, I wasn't at the funeral, but I was on a it was on a Zoom call, so I was in the UK. And we were quite inspired and touched by what Reverend Witbooi had said. So, immediately after the funeral, I contacted Erwin and I said, "What's the situation with this place? What's going on? Because wouldn't it be great if we got involved and, and carried on that legacy?" So, that's, so that was the conversation. And then I, for three years now, I kind of fell out of love with South Africa, to be honest. Um, but three or four years ago, I came back for Christmas. My brother lives in, one brother lives in Simonstown, the other lives in Barrydale. And I just fell in love with it.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): Okay.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Mainly getting out. Yeah. So, I got this idea that I bought one of these camping trailers, and I bought a truck, and I put a motorcycle on the back, and I come here for two or three months, and I just go into the bush and travel around. So, I've done that now three or four times. So, this year, I said, "You know what I'll do? I'll make sure that my route back to Cape Town, so I was up in Hwange, Vic Falls, and that sort of stuff. I said, 'I'll come down through Botswana, I'll go through Vryburg, and let's go and have a look and see what.'"

So, um, so we came and I was I have to tell you, I was so nervous coming into Vryburg like, "What are we going to find in there?" Yeah, yeah. And, and Erwin reached out to, um, Reverend Witbooi first. And there's a lady Ann, I think, who's involved I saw some emails to her saying, you know, who should Stuart ask for when he gets there? He's coming through and that. And we didn't get much in the way of response. So, we looked up on Google Maps where this children's center was. And it was basically a crossroads in the middle of town. And I got there and there was no sign of any child center. So, I stopped, and I looked around and there's so many young children around there that all sort of converging on the truck. And then some old guy came past and I said to him, "Where is this children's center?" So, he said, "It's just down the road there." And I went there and that ended up being

So, so he sent me to this soup kitchen, Manno’s. Yeah. And what a wonderful, I mean, he just seems like such an amazing person, and he's performing miracles with what he's doing there, you know? So, I took a video, and I introduced myself to him, and I spoke with him. And there was a lovely lady there called Brenda, an assistant of his. And she knew quite a bit, she said, "No, no, the what you're looking for is down there. The building's still there. You must go there." Um, so I went around there, and they had one of their co-workers came with me, and I looked around, and I went into the there's a there's a clinic that's running in one of the buildings. So, I had a look around, and I saw the stones and that sort of stuff, but they'd said that the children's center itself closed down about 15 years ago.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): Oh, no, let me give you a little bit of a.. So, that's my background here.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Okay. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): Yeah. Okay. If you've been to Manno's, you've seen a lot of the good work that they are doing there. Um, the uh, during the COVID times, you know, I mean, in South Africa, uh, I suppose it's like in all third-world countries. We have lots and lots mushrooming small what we call soup kitchens. And during the COVID time, in Vryburg, we tried to get them together to work together because, um, they would be able to do such a better job. Um, and Manno was on the forefront of us trying to get them all together. We weren't 100% successful, but with Manno we were successful, um, because he's his work is really invaluable. But, I mean, that is Manno, and he's a beautiful person.

The Care Centre officially closed down, the children's Care Centre officially closed down at the end of 2018.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Oh, so fairly recently. Recently, yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): But that very much had to do with, um, uh, the fact that, uh, the service became outdated.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Well, things have changed dramatically.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): Yeah, you see the Care Centre was started in, uh, I think 1974, yeah, by Reverend Harold Brooks. And it catered for children from the surrounding uh, small villages that children could be brought so that they could come for their formal education. Yeah. So, it really catered for all these four small farming communities, uh, the poor, the and they did a wonderful job, uh, over time.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): But then came 1994 with our democracy. And everything changed. So, the Department of Education actually started taking responsibility, uh, because it's a state responsibility, education. They started taking responsibility and started building hostels for, um, these children, and they pretty much were accommodated.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Okay.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): Meaning the Care Centre just had less and less children. No subsidy from government was primarily funded by the church. But it became difficult, yeah, more and more. Um, in 2018, we had 19 children with parents who could not pay. And five full-time workers. So, so the place just became obsolete. Yeah. Uh, it was heart-wrenching, uh, to close it, but it had to be closed, uh, because there was the need, there was no need for it anymore in in in its form.

And financially the church could not afford, uh, the place was getting dilapidated, uh, everything went down. So, so 2018, the end of 2018, we closed down the Care Centre and, uh, agonized about what should replace it.

Um, 2019, we started preparing the place, making it livable again. You've seen the place.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Yes, yes, I was there.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): And, um, and during that period, uh, at the end of uh, of that year, I think it was October, October of that year, 2019, the Department of Health was in urgent need of, uh, accommodating their clinic. So, they requested us to rent out half of the building for them.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Ah, okay.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): So, so the clinic part that you saw is half of the premises.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Yeah, I saw that. I saw that.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): Uh, and it provided, uh, us in the church a welcome relief because, uh, part of the building would be occupied, we would be getting a monthly rental, and we would be able to use it to repurpose the building. Which we did, and, uh, it is now, for lack of a better term, it's called the it's still called the Care Centre, the Children Care Centre, but it has been repurposed as a kind of a for lack of a better term, a conference venue where, uh, churches, uh, whoever wants to use the place. Uh, it has, uh, sleeping accommodation for 100 people.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Oh, okay. Wow.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): Uh, it has a nice big hall with a mini hall, with a kitchen. Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, we've, uh, we've done it as we've repurposed the thing as a kind of a meeting venue, because also within the community, there was no other facility that people could use. So, the aged, uh, gets together every second week in the building, um, to keep themselves busy and, uh, they have their own programs which are very interesting. Um, just this past Wednesday. What is today? Today's Thursday, I believe. Yesterday, just yesterday, they had a big gathering there. Um, and they phoned me from there. So, so they're using it for that. They're using it the children has been using it for a conference center. I think that not think, I heard the community has now in this year also started kind of a community gym in the place. So, so it has been totally repurposed. It is still a non-profit organization. Okay. Um, and for all intents and purposes, it still falls under the Methodist church.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Ah, okay.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): Uh, but it is a non-profit organization that has been registered, and, uh, they're running the place just to up-keep, maintain the place. Uh, so, yeah, that is the long and the short. They have the I mean, they have regular workshops, uh, as I said, church conferences, uh, actually, it has become quite a busy place.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): So, um, they mentioned to me yesterday, when because we walked briefly through the, um, the clinic to the other side to see those two stones, the stones in the wall. Yeah. And just have a look at the front of the building. My first impressions of the clinic, it looked to be a really well-run, clean, tidy place. You know, I was, I was quite impressed. It's obviously simple, and it's, and it's spartan, but it's perfect, you know, it's appropriate. And so, I was, I was quite impressed with what I saw, very briefly. I mean, I walked through and looked around, that's it, but, but you can tell sometimes with these things. You know, the seats were all neatly organized. There were people sitting there in the waiting rooms. It, and it seemed to be a quite a comfortable environment and that sort of stuff. So, I was, I was quite impressed. But I believe the clinic is moving as well, is that correct? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): Yes. The you see it was it was always going to be a temporary arrangement. Yeah. Because the place is called Colridge, that area. Okay. Now, they had a clinic, uh, but the clinic was condemned by the engineers, by the state engineers. And therefore they urgently needed a place. And we could be the stop-gap for them, have the place, uh, quickly done up and prepared for them. And, um, and they moved in 2020. Okay. So fairly recently. Yeah, yeah. Uh, and, uh, yeah. So, they have, uh, they have been preparing another site for the past year. Right. Uh, so they would be moving anytime soon.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Okay.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): And then that will just I mean, that part, uh, would again just become part of the center.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): So just replicate what you're doing on the other side essentially. Okay. A little bit of history was helpful. I know, it's ..I'm intrigued to know then, your involvement and your knowledge of Hilmar and Sytzke Kratz, did you meet them? Did you work with them? Oh, so you came post. But Reverend Brooks was still involved when you joined? Is that right? Or did he go?

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): No, no, no. Uh, Reverend Brooks was long gone. Okay. Um, uh, in in in the Methodist Church, we our ministers get sent. Okay. Um, so we stay not for long in places, uh, average four to five years. So, Reverend Brooks was long gone. In fact, he's long he's retired long ago. He passed away.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): I heard, he passed from COVID, is that right?

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): Not from COVID. Him and his wife passed away within a week of each other. Okay. But it was pretty much age. Right, right. And after that, there were quite a few ministers for short period of periods of time. And then I got there and I stayed a few years.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Okay. Okay. You were mentioned and spoken very highly of at the soup kitchen, um, by Manno. He was very complimentary of the assistance that he's got from you.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): Oh, yeah, we work together nicely.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Yeah, no, I was I have to say I was, I came out there with goosebumps talking to him because, you know, he's got he's got people that are working there. He's he runs a tight ship, you can see. I mean, it's a small simple operation, but he's getting things done. You know, he's getting things done. And I was so impressed, so, so, so impressed. Absolutely. Um, so, did you work together with Reverend Witbooi as well then? Or was that also?

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): No, no. That was pre my time. That was pre my time. Uh, I think Reverend Witbooi followed Reverend Brooks. Okay. Okay. Um, but that was also long ago. It was, I think Reverend Witbooi was there from 1981.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): He certainly knew Hilmar and Sytzke because as I said, he spoke at the funeral and spoke of

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): Yeah, that was long before my time. I've been a late arrival in the game. Yeah, to Vryburg. I I just got there in 2016. Right. So, people before that I would not necessarily have known and, you know, people moved out of Vryburg. So, I might have known family members, but not really.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): So, so to change tack a little bit, I'd really like to pick your brain and maybe, who knows, see where it can take us. But, um, as I said, Erwin and I have been formulating this this idea and, um, part of the problem for someone like myself is, I come from an engineering background, okay? I'm very practical, hands-on. I ran my own business, that's it. Erwin is a qualified lawyer now, very hands-on sort of person as well. I sold my business eight years ago. Okay. So, financially I'm very, very comfortable, even by UK standards. Okay. I'm, but I'm not Bill Gates. I'm not these guys that can set up a whole big center or anything like that. And we kind of sat with this brainstorming.

We were talking about it, you know, and we said, I don't really want to be involved in a charity like, I don't know, say Red Cross, where you just a number and you don't actually feel, am I making any kind of difference on the one hand? On the other hand, I don't also just want to be a checkbook giving money to people, and I can't give substantial amounts of money. I certainly can help and I certainly can give money.

But what we really became interested in is, and the soup kitchen for me was it ticked every box of what we spoke about. People that are actually doing it already. They they're not waiting for someone else to come and get them started. He doing it already and he's got the community involved and that sort of thing. But he needs help. He absolutely needs help. And so, I would love to have a relationship. I don't want to tell him how to run his business, that'd be crazy, because he's doing such a good job anyway, you know. I there's no ways I can tell him how to run. But help in any way I can, including financial, of course.

So, the idea for us was to try to identify small charities which where people are already working, you know? And I know, certainly in the UK, and I'm sure it's the same in South Africa, they sort of say, "Oh, you know, there's funds available, there's support available. Fill out these 50 forms and do this and do that." And by the time you get through it all, everyone's just decides, "Ah, I can't be bothered." And, and a lot of these people, they might not even know how to fill out these forms. They might not have the expertise and the wherewithal to tick the right boxes, to say the right things in the right place to play the game, with the politics. So, I we like the idea of being involved with a small charity where we can develop a personal relationship with the person that's there, understand what they're doing, and help in any way we can. So, literally say, "I'm here. If you need, if you need a handyman, I can come in and make things. If you if you want somebody that can give you some guidance of, you know, or some assistance financially." My preference would not just to be starting with a checkbook. It would be, how can we help? How can we be involved?

So, so we got thinking about this, and we we've got quite a few friends and, and I think there's a good market for us to almost connect small places like that with people similar to me in the UK who want to make a difference, but they want to know that their money's going to somewhere that's going to make a difference. That and have a relationship, even if it's once a month they get an email to say, "Hey, you know what, we And, and I was so impressed there again, he's got books showing, I feed 2,500 people a day, you know? And he's got names and everything like that. If I was living in the UK and I got an email from him once a month to say, "Hey, thank you for the donation. This month we did this, we did that, we did That's all I want. That's all I want,

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): and he is very good at that. He's brilliant. He's uh also in terms of, um, communicating with, uh, those who supports, so the Yeah, he's very good at it. You see, in a place like Vryburg, Manno stands out, because, to a large degree, he started that place, uh, and is maintained that place on his own resources. You're talking about these government grants and stuff. Uh, three years ago, because, because, you know, successful initiatives are very interesting to government. Yeah. Uh, because if they could show that they are linked to a successful. Then it's as if they created it. And they approached, uh, the soup Manno's soup kitchen to assist. Uh, and we went through the process. We really went through the process of doing everything, like in everything they required, and they approved the funding three years ago. The money just never got there. And, uh, uh, but it was an important lesson also, um, that Manno then started thinking, and it would have helped if there was more assistance. Uh, and the promise of the assistance was like a silver lining. Uh, but when it didn't realize, uh, their resolve to continue was just strengthened.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): That's great. That's, because other people might just fold their shoulders and say, "Give up." Exactly. Which proves what an exceptional person he is.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): So, uh, and I agree fully with that. I know I left there in December of last year. I finished off. Yeah. I retired. In our church, when you hit a certain age, you've got to go. Yeah. So, I hit my age and I had to go. Um, but at that particular time, and I think it is still a discussion. You've seen where Manno's soup kitchen is. Just two roads from there was a building is a building that also had a soup kitchen run by a beautiful lady who passed on, she was old, she passed on uh, last year. No, no, this year. And, um, and she ran a soup kitchen for long. And she didn't want to join forces with Manno. Yeah. Uh, and we all knew that she's steering a sinking ship. Yeah. It was all clear. But, I mean, she was old. She's been doing it for many, many years. She had a few funders that was assisting her over the years, so the thing became very personal to her. But she died. Okay. And the building belonged to a trust. Okay. And the idea was from all of us who were activists in the community was that that building should be made available to Manno. Okay. So that he could move out of his yard, uh, and just be able to serve a little bit better. Um, and it's a beautiful, it's an old building, it's an old structure, uh, but it, I mean, I could, we all just saw the possibilities of how it could be repurposed. Uh, uh, with your kind of, uh, expertise.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Yeah. Uh, that would have been a wonderful opportunity to assist in getting that thing. So, what is it standing empty at the moment?

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): The building. Uh, [for political reasons, it was not put to Manno’s use].

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): I mean, true I'm always intrigued why people want to do good and get involved, and then get bogged down in politics.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): But you see, it's this selfish little thing of as long as it can be my thing. I must own the thing.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): You see, that's interesting that you say that because this is something that Erwin and I both spoke about at length and agreed on, is that we don't want to the more we can just be in the background. And I don't want to because I don't want it to become something that becomes dependent on me. I want it to be self-sustaining. And what we're doing is just making it easier or making it better for them in the background. We're not there to tell them how to run it. We're not there to tell them what to do. We're not certainly not there to get involved in politics or anything like that.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): That's why Manno's option is a wonderful I'm telling you. I mean, they will be able to utilize your skills and your expertise. Because money is not necessarily the only thing that a person can give, uh. Sometimes what we give apart from money is often more valuable than monetary because monetary Money is money, man.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Uh, I think that would be a wonderful opportunity.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): You see, that soup kitchen of Mannos not only a soup kitchen where they feed between 2 to 3,000 people twice a week. Yeah. It is also a place where they distribute to the sick and the elderly. Okay. Uh, it is also a a place where they have a very close association with a clinic, for example. Yeah.

Where they, uh, through Manno, um, the soup kitchen, uh, the Department of Health provides primary health care. Okay. So, it's his name is Manno's soup kitchen, but it's actually more than that.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Well, if he has that relationship and trust with that many people, you can imagine what he can achieve in other areas as well.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): Absolutely. Um, and he has proven credentials that he's not there to make a buck for himself. He's, uh, he's been doing it for the past few years. Manno himself is a chef, he's a he's a caterer. So, on a side, he does his catering to bring in a little bit of money to help the soup kitchen to stay alive. Um, one or two he has one or two sponsors. But, I mean, I'm telling you, if you really, from what I hear you two are talking about, um, wanting to make a contribution, uh, a nice contribution, a worthwhile contribution, uh, then Manno's soup kitchen stands out as a possible one. And I'm saying to you, uh, very clearly, money is not necessarily what people need.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): So, I hear what you're saying, and, and, the time I spent with Manno, I walked out of there and I called Erwin, driving from Vryburg down to Kimberley. I said, "I've just had the most amazing experience. The sad news is, the stuff that your parents did is is now obsolete. The buildings are still there, they appear to be in good order," and I told him what I'd found there and that sort of thing. I said, "But this guy, he ticks every box of what you and I have spoken about. You know, he's doing it already. He's got community workers in there that are giving their time. He's managing it. I said, "This guy you could not ask for a better, more shining example."

Personally, and I'm speaking in very… And this is also one of the things that Erwin and I discussed at length, is that everybody has their own personal experiences, life experiences, reasons for which charity they want to get in, and there's no right or wrong, you know, what approach you take, how you want to contribute and all that sort of thing. And, and if you want to be a person who just writes a check and sends it off and doesn't want to have anything to do with it, great. We need people like that. There's a role for everybody, and there's a role for all kinds of charity.

For me, personally, a soup kitchen charity is not I would like to see I'd rather deal with a smaller group of people where we say, "Let's take one or two people that have got that real potential and give them the opportunity to go through and to get to an adulthood where they can make a difference." That that for me would be more inspiring. However, however, I recognize that the single easiest or the best way to achieve anything like that is to have one person or key people on the ground that are making sure that that's happening every single day, because I can't be here. We can't do that. So, so if it means saying to Manno, "Look, let's work together and build something here," without running ahead too far and trying to get too clever or anything like that, how can we actually collaborate and work together? And I can bring to you I I can name a dozen friends in the UK that would love to be involved in something, you know, for them, 50 quid a month or 100 quid a month, they would do it tomorrow if they know that this is going somewhere like to Manno. They would do it tomorrow.

So, I can, I can certainly help as far as, and for me personally as well, I can help as far as financial issues are concerned. But I'd love to, and I will, I'm going to take you up on and I'm going to take what you've suggested there and say to you, "Now, okay. What can we do now? You must know of these 2.5, 3,000 kids that are coming through, there's some bright sparks in there. What can we do? What can we do to give them some sort of guidance, to push them on, to give them opportunities that that if they, you know, if we can take out of that 2,000, if we can get 10 people in a generation's time that are making a difference and contributing and breaking the cycle, that that to me is my dream."

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): But you see, all beautiful dreams, uh, there's got to be grounded somewhere. Uh, and if I hear you correctly, uh, is you are looking for an opportunity to action those kinds of ideas. Let me also say, I mean, we've been at the Children's Care Centre, through the church, we used the Children's Care Centre in the same way to identify people that could be developed. Yeah. And in the process, uh, we've had a few medical doctors that we've supported who became medical doctors, we have a few attorneys, um, we have a few nurses, many teachers. I mean, uh, people that came through the system, we identified them and assisted them in small ways to to to to further, uh, their own, uh, education and development.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): Now, Manno, for me, why Manno is a good example. Apart from those that they feed, he makes use of those you've heard about those, they call them volunteers. Yeah. And many of them are actually just because people cannot find work. And they do not have money to go and study. They are there. And it's like the Manno would be a better person to speak to about that, but it's like the opportunity, do we just leave them uh, to out of doing nothing becoming involved in substance abuse and that kind of stuff, or do we give them an opportunity, uh, "Come and volunteer, man. We we will make a plan to give you something every month." Uh, and, uh, and in the process, some very bright people come through there. That just needs a little bit of assistance to be put on their path. So, there's many opportunities.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel):Yeah, I can see that.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre):Uh, it is, it is, I always say, I've been, uh, apart from being an ordained minister, I've been a community development worker. Full-time for about 15 years of my life, uh, where, I mean, we were into development funding. And we always had we sat with proposals. And, uh, you learn that some of the most beautiful written proposals are not necessarily 100% what is on the ground. Uh, so, um, uh, we've learned to figure out, uh, man, we all have dreams, and we all want to make, for whatever reason, we want to make a contribution, whether it's just for being grateful for opportunities that we've had, we want to share. Uh, others from a very egotistical point of view want to do that, and they want to shine, and everybody has their own different reasons. But if you hook onto an initiative where you can, I mean, not be a number. But be an active participant in what people are doing. …

I think the development experience becomes a reciprocal experience. Because as those we assist develop, we develop. In the same way.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): Amen. Amen.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): But to do that, you've got to, I mean, you've got to find your entry point. Uh, what do I do in the multitude of things out there? I think Manno's soup kitchen could provide you with an opportunity.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): And I, and I agree. I've seen that. You know, I had this this this way of some of my friends, the other friends that I started talking to and in the discussions I've had with Erwin and that, and this kind of vision or idea that I had, I liken it to an online internet dating agency. And what it is, is these are two consenting adults. The charity is a consenting adult, and the contributor, whether it's financial or whatever, is a consenting adult. I don't want to be involved in saying to him, "Here's rules, here's a contract, here's how you." You know what? You get involved. And if the charity decides, "We don't like this guy because he's telling us what to do," you stop the relationship. And this guy says, "I don't like the way the charity's going," you stop the relationship. But so long as the two are mutually benefiting from each other, you have a healthy relationship. And I think when you try to have all these contracts and forms and all that sort of stuff, it's just chaos. So, we see this idea of being able to create an environment where there are charities like Manno that are desperately looking for help. And there's people like myself in Europe or the US that are very keen to help, but they just can't connect with each other. And I don't want to create an environment where you've got to fill out all these forms and declare all sorts of things. You know, it just must be, you know what? I like the sound of what you're doing. How about we get involved and have a go, and then after three or four months, you know, this is not going the direction. It's not quite what I thought it was going to be. It's not where I want to be. And that kind of informal relationship is what I see as being really a good way to go forward.

Speaker 2 (Reverend Pierre): And I think it's much more dynamic than these formal relationships. Uh, I mean, we, for example, uh, we run two soup kitchens here in Kimberley. Um, also, I mean, with the I hate the words, but with the poorest of the poor, uh, with the marginalized. And everybody is saying to us, "Why don't you get a government subsidy?" Yeah. And I say, "Yeah, you know, you are so right, it's so nice. Uh, they will give you 10,000 Rand a month, and for that 10,000 Rand, you will have to sell your identity to them. Yeah. And you will have to complete 100,000 forms. Yeah. And you will be absolutely indebted to them." Uh, I said, "You know, we run it by people who just, uh, out of the goodness of their hearts, say, 'Here's a packet of samp, here's a packet of potatoes.' Uh, and, uh, when you run out of stock, you can go back to those very same people because they they do it because they want to do it." Yeah. It is, I think you would, you would find a worthwhile experience connecting up, uh, through an initiative such as Manno's soup kitchen. I really think so.

Speaker 1 (Stuart Diesel): And that's it. You've encouraged me to say, "This is definitely a plan of action that we'll go forward with." Um, I'll reach back to him [Manno] and say, "Hey, we've spoken with yourself. I'll be talking with Erwin and others who are keen to be involved in different ways." And, and what I'm also quite keen in is, is not it's for each individual person to say, "How do you want to be involved, you know? Do you want a hands-off approach or do you want to be a hands-on approach? What is it that that you would like to do?" But that's only of value if that's what they need as a charity as well. You might you might have all the skills to do certain things which they don't need. Well, then find another charity to work with, find another person to work with. No one, you know, someone there might well need those things, but that's what not what they need. So, I think if you can almost this, like I say, this dating agency, you know what? This person and this person, there's a good fit here. Let them just introduce, and then you guys take care of yourself, you know, and that's kind of very much where we'd like to go with it.